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April 27 2012

Person 1  but biological sex is annoying still :/ Person 2  it’s showing the seperation of biological sex from identity. IE, I’m biologically female and mostly okay with that, it doesn’t affect my identity as male. For some people bio sex is irritating, but it’s still a fact of life. Person 3  But ‘biologically x’ is a very loaded term. I have XX chromosomes, but I’m male, so I see myself as ‘biologically male’ and my ‘biological sex’ as male. I don’t see it as a ‘fact of life’ that anything to do with me is female; it’s not. It’s XX-typical, but that’s not the same. Person 1 but like biological sex is only “true” if your sexual organs, hormones and karyotypes are in sync. I for instance have “male” genitalia, but female hormones and I have no clue as to what my karyotype is as I haven’t have it tested. Person 2  sure, but that’s not /everyone’s/ situation. chromosomal sex isn’t necessarily what it’s referring to. Transsexuality and transgenderism are separate (albeit often together). Person 3  But either way, saying someone with (say) XX chromosomes, XX-typical genitalia and XX-typical oestrogen levels is ‘biologically female’ is massively problematic. Person 4 I don’t see why “biological sex” has anything to do with anything. Person 2  Sex is still subject to self identity. I one day hope to have a body that’s totally androgynous, so I would see myself as an androgynous bodied person. I identify as male, however, so that’s still separate from gender identity. For some people their sex identity is PART of their self identity. Person 1 because people still use “biological sex” as a method to erase our identities, WBWs consider me a “male” infiltrator rather than the woman I actually am. Person 2  But equally my mother uses a LACK of biological sex to erase /my/ identity. it’s on the diagram because it’s important to some people. Person 4 The implication of the diagram is, to me, that your birth sex /is/ your biological sex and you will only transituion to the sex assocated with your gender ID Person 4 but still better then the ones with only one line for everything and no distinction between ID and expression. Person 2  To me it implies the converse? (that you could transition sex to any sex independent of ID) Person 1 I think I’m starting to get Morgan’s point and it’s similar to what I’m trying to argue is that sex shouldn’t be set in stone from your birth sex? Person 2  And I get your point htat by including it on the diagram it could, in the wrong eyes (the WBW people) overemphasize the importance of bio sex. Person 4 Should we change “biological sex” to “sex id”? Person 1 the only problem of sex id is that it has a chance of appropriating the experiences of intersex people? Person 2  ‎”DAMN IS GENDER EVER COMPLICATED!” <- The only fully accurate diagram we could ever produce. Person 1 I would rather see something like body identity so we don’t have people identifying as intersex who are not? Like my body should (and is mostly) female but like my gender id switches between agender and female. Person 4 And this also doesn’t take any account of fluidity of anything!!! Person 2  Birth Sex, Actual Sex. My birth sex is female, my actual sex asex. Person 2  You know how in photoshop you can set brushes as having “jitter” that makes them jump about? we need to add that as a scale! Person 1 why can’t we just have boxes to write our IDs in :’( Person 4 Sometimes the words don’t exist yet :( Person 2  Hi I’m SORT OF A; “gynesexual asexual pansexual episcene transmasculine adrogyne”. (pronounce it so they all rhyme) Person 5 I’m really sorry to but in, but I’m guessing that WBW stands for ‘womyn born womyn’, i.e. ciswomen? It seems like you’re equating ciswomen with radical feminists/gender abolitionists, which is problematic in itself. Radfems are, on the whole, pretty horrible people, and I don’t know any ciswomen (or anyone else, tbh) who would want to be associated with them. Person 2  I think it was a reference to spaces being open only to “womyn born” womyn. IE, no it’s not referring to ciswomen who are okay people. Person 1 my ID is currently comprised of 8 words (*^▽^*). Person 5, the whole WBW concept has been used almost exclusively by TERFs to exclude trans women, in this case I am exclusively referring to people who use the WBW concept, sorry for the misconception. Person 5 Ok, my mistake. I had a fight with London Feminist Network about this very thing - they said I couldn’t come to a demonstration against Miss World because I’m not a ciswoman. Mega sigh… Person 1 also to note mine: Agender-female, trans woman, femme, poly, aro, femme-sexual. Hannah that sounds mega shitty :/, I haven’t gotten involved with the LFM at all though and probably won’t now. Person 4 Would anyone object if I put this discussion on the trans* rep tumblr? I’ll blur names and pictures. Person 1 yeh no worries Person 2  Ooh, I feel famous. *fans self and bats eyelashes*

Person 1  but biological sex is annoying still :/

Person 2  it’s showing the seperation of biological sex from identity. IE, I’m biologically female and mostly okay with that, it doesn’t affect my identity as male. For some people bio sex is irritating, but it’s still a fact of life.

Person 3  But ‘biologically x’ is a very loaded term. I have XX chromosomes, but I’m male, so I see myself as ‘biologically male’ and my ‘biological sex’ as male. I don’t see it as a ‘fact of life’ that anything to do with me is female; it’s not. It’s XX-typical, but that’s not the same.

Person 1 but like biological sex is only “true” if your sexual organs, hormones and karyotypes are in sync. I for instance have “male” genitalia, but female hormones and I have no clue as to what my karyotype is as I haven’t have it tested.

Person 2  sure, but that’s not /everyone’s/ situation. chromosomal sex isn’t necessarily what it’s referring to. Transsexuality and transgenderism are separate (albeit often together).

Person 3  But either way, saying someone with (say) XX chromosomes, XX-typical genitalia and XX-typical oestrogen levels is ‘biologically female’ is massively problematic.

Person 4 I don’t see why “biological sex” has anything to do with anything.

Person 2  Sex is still subject to self identity. I one day hope to have a body that’s totally androgynous, so I would see myself as an androgynous bodied person. I identify as male, however, so that’s still separate from gender identity. For some people their sex identity is PART of their self identity.

Person 1 because people still use “biological sex” as a method to erase our identities, WBWs consider me a “male” infiltrator rather than the woman I actually am.

Person 2  But equally my mother uses a LACK of biological sex to erase /my/ identity. it’s on the diagram because it’s important to some people.

Person 4 The implication of the diagram is, to me, that your birth sex /is/ your biological sex and you will only transituion to the sex assocated with your gender ID

Person 4 but still better then the ones with only one line for everything and no distinction between ID and expression.

Person 2  To me it implies the converse? (that you could transition sex to any sex independent of ID)

Person 1 I think I’m starting to get Morgan’s point and it’s similar to what I’m trying to argue is that sex shouldn’t be set in stone from your birth sex?

Person 2  And I get your point htat by including it on the diagram it could, in the wrong eyes (the WBW people) overemphasize the importance of bio sex.

Person 4 Should we change “biological sex” to “sex id”?

Person 1 the only problem of sex id is that it has a chance of appropriating the experiences of intersex people?

Person 2  ‎”DAMN IS GENDER EVER COMPLICATED!” <- The only fully accurate diagram we could ever produce.

Person 1 I would rather see something like body identity so we don’t have people identifying as intersex who are not? Like my body should (and is mostly) female but like my gender id switches between agender and female.

Person 4 And this also doesn’t take any account of fluidity of anything!!!

Person 2  Birth Sex, Actual Sex. My birth sex is female, my actual sex asex.

Person 2  You know how in photoshop you can set brushes as having “jitter” that makes them jump about? we need to add that as a scale!

Person 1 why can’t we just have boxes to write our IDs in :’(

Person 4 Sometimes the words don’t exist yet :(

Person 2  Hi I’m SORT OF A; “gynesexual asexual pansexual episcene transmasculine adrogyne”. (pronounce it so they all rhyme)

Person 5 I’m really sorry to but in, but I’m guessing that WBW stands for ‘womyn born womyn’, i.e. ciswomen? It seems like you’re equating ciswomen with radical feminists/gender abolitionists, which is problematic in itself. Radfems are, on the whole, pretty horrible people, and I don’t know any ciswomen (or anyone else, tbh) who would want to be associated with them.

Person 2  I think it was a reference to spaces being open only to “womyn born” womyn. IE, no it’s not referring to ciswomen who are okay people.

Person 1 my ID is currently comprised of 8 words (*^▽^*). Person 5, the whole WBW concept has been used almost exclusively by TERFs to exclude trans women, in this case I am exclusively referring to people who use the WBW concept, sorry for the misconception.

Person 5 Ok, my mistake. I had a fight with London Feminist Network about this very thing - they said I couldn’t come to a demonstration against Miss World because I’m not a ciswoman. Mega sigh…

Person 1 also to note mine: Agender-female, trans woman, femme, poly, aro, femme-sexual. Hannah that sounds mega shitty :/, I haven’t gotten involved with the LFM at all though and probably won’t now.

Person 4 Would anyone object if I put this discussion on the trans* rep tumblr? I’ll blur names and pictures.

Person 1 yeh no worries

Person 2  Ooh, I feel famous. *fans self and bats eyelashes*

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